The Facebook Vote Swap group that is getting all the attention is beyond ridiculous.
I suppose this group has arisen from voters' (especially young voters) frustration over our antiquated electoral system but the only thing less representative than a first-past-the-post system, is an FPTP system that's been $%&@'ed with.
The more people trust this vote swap, the less representative the vote will be. The thing runs on the honour system for christssakes. This is an election people! People are not always honest. Especially people on the internet (see my earlier evidence of this phenomenon).
I'm a pretty honest person (brutally honest usually) and I'm still tempted to scam Liberals out of their votes through this system. But I won't. Because I care too to much about Canadian democracy. And because one look at my facebook profile would probably scare Liberals away anyways.
But I wouldn't put it past those interweb-saavy Tories. They are wily.
And the Greens. This is their big chance. Yesterday, the vote swap group had a list of ridings that needed specific votes. The list told us to vote Green in six ridings where the Greens didn't come in second (and not even third or fourth in most of them) and have no hope of winning. But we were supposed to believe that voting Green there is the best strategy for beating the Conservatives. With strategy like that one wonders if Conservatives aren't behind this thing. That would be a whole new level of wily. FYI- the list is gone now, after I and others made a massive fuss over it. Seriously, your friendly neighbourhood Dipper Chick took on the big bad creator of the group (actually he's very polite- probably a nice guy) and now the list is no more. That's power.
Questionable strategic value aside, the biggest flaw in this vote swap system lies in the group's major premise: that anyone but a Conservative is A-ok. That is one of the biggest fallacies that exists in Canadian politics. Sometimes I wonder if mass amounts of Canadians have sustained head injuries causing severe memory loss and amnesia that have made them forget the right-wing Liberal governments of the 1990's. If so, I am sorry for being so insensitive to your ignorance. But the fact remains- the Liberal Party is not left-wing. They are not the answer to stop all the things you don't like about Harper.
The Liberal governments of Jean Chretien and Paul Martin bled our social services dry causing the crises we have today in health care, post-secondary education, and numerous other important Canadian Institutions that they pretend to care about at election time. They did nothing on the environment, allowing polluting industries to spiral out of control. Many Liberal MPs even voted against same sex marriage. This is not a progressive bunch.
As for the Green Party, they have many conservatives in their ranks. And under Elizabeth May, they have become nothing more than Liberal cheerleaders. But my regular readers already know what I think of May and the Green Party. Here's a treat for those of you who don't.
New Democrats are the only ones who have been consistently progressive. They are the true founders of our universal health care system, they have always defended human rights (even when those rights are unpopular), they stood up to Harper against the mission in Afghanistan when others would not, and they look out for ordinary Canadians. Take note vote swappers who are fed up with our FPTP system- New Democrats are the only party in the HOC pushing for a more representative electoral system.
So when I think about stopping Harper, only one party comes to mind. Makes strategic voting so much simpler.
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27 comments:
oh Erin, you are pretty funny. I loved the eg of swapping a vote in Winnipeg so that the swapper would vote in rural Alberta (cause the liberal doesn't have a chance of winning there), and like the NDP does? Too funny!
Any who, the redeeming thing this swap did (if on the up and up) was try to ensure that vote for vote (if everybody kept their promise) would mean that one could hold their nose and vote for whatever party and knowing that someone else was voting for your party. That way the small amount of money each vote garner's for each party still went there.
But the reality is that one would never know if that person actually voted for their team, so it's a wash, and also it distorts the real base of support for your team.
My favourite example was actually this one:
The founder of the group said:
Hi everyone,
This message was posted on the wall earlier, and it describes a great candidate for a vote swap:
"I love this idea. The left is very fractured in Canada, but I'd still hate to see us be stuck with only two parties (ala U.S.A.). This is a great compromise, at least until we can get a more fair electoral system along the lines of proportional representation.
Unfortunately I live in Stockwell Day and Colin Mayes country so my vote will simply go to waste yet once again. I will however pass this on to everyone I know."
This person needs to post on the wall who they would like to support, and find someone willing to exchange. Let's pretend he would like to vote Green, maybe there is an NDP supporter in Central Nova Scotia who is willing to vote Green in his local riding in exchange for our poor friend stuck in Stockwell Dayland's promise to vote NDP.
The result - each party still gets a vote, and each voter still gets to support his desired party...It's just that we're a step closer to one fewer Conservative seat.
Get swapping!"
To which I replied:
Well that example works out great for the Green voter but the NDP voter gets screwed. Stockwell's seat is pretty safe. And an NDP vote is more useful than a Green vote in Central Nova anyways because the NDP finished a strong second there in 2006. The NDP candidate got more votes than the Liberals and the Greens combined.
I think there's a way to do an online vote swap, using a trust system. There are other online communities that have trust systems, eBay for instance, or Slashdot.
The effect of this system may not be significant on this election, but it's important because it keenly points out the failings of FPTP. It will kick things into gear for real electoral reform.
Vervy writing... I haven't reread a blog post for a long time. Thanks.
Useless green voting aside... actually no - if it gets hopeless green votes in close call ridings to go NDP or Liberal in exchange for hopeless lib/dip votes going green in Alberta it works too... I think the group works. Just pick the party in your riding that was closest or won last time, and you can't really be fooled.
You're right about the 90's Liberals not being very left wing - but I can't agree that running a balanced budget is unprogressive. If I remember Grade 11 social studies right, we're paying 40 billion a year in interest payments.
Paying that debt down is the most progressive thing I can think of. (one reason I vote conservative ; )
"But the fact remains- the Liberal Party is not left-wing. They are not the answer to stop all the things you don't like about Harper."
The Liberals and the NDP both have environmental plans, the Cons do not.
All NDPs and 90% of Liberals voted against re-visiting the same sex marriage issue, 93% of Cons vote in favour of re-visiting.
The Liberal government told the USA where to shove it when they asked us to join the Iraq War, NDPs applauded this, the Cons were angry.
Its true that the Liberals aren't quite as left-leaning as the NDP, but the fact is there are many more similiarities between these two parties, than there are between the current Liberal and Reform/Alliance/Conservative (whatever they are calling themselves these days) parties.
The thing that frustrates me most about Jack Layton and NDP supporters like yourself is your complete disregard for the welfare of this country. Mr. Layton spent the entire last election bashing the Liberals which helped clear the way for a Con victory. Is this what you people want?? You would prefer to have the country run by people with nearly the opposite political views as yourself? It appalls me that you would put your own vendetta against the Liberal Party ahead of the greater good for this country, and that is to not have the Cons win a majority in this election.
We all talk of election reform and there is only one sensible solution: citing France as an example, they have a full election with all parties. If no one gets a majority, then the two parties with the most votes go head to head in another election (very similar to how we vote for our party leaders.) In this scenerio, we would likely never see a Con majority again, which would be the best thing for Canada.
Great post,
the first thing I thought when I saw that vote-swap thing was "I'll suscribe and I'll vote whatever I want anyway so the party I want may get 2 votes instead of one". It's just a band-aid on the cancer that is FPTP, we need to convince opposition parties to solve that problem, except the Bloc won't ever do it because they'd lose 50% off their seat, they'll say it's better for Quebec to stay with FPTP. The Liberals won't think about it before they were favored by the system in the past.
Kelly, my lib MP voted for every right wing "social bill" that came before the House of Commons, when the liberals were in power and when Harper was in Power.
Martin got us into Afghanistan as consolation for not stepping up for Iraq. Incidentally, we provided naval assistance for US while they illegally invaded and occupied Iraq, but oh, let's not mention that.
Liberals voted how many times to extend the mission in Afghanistan for a US invasion of a country that did not attack them. I do not like the Taliban but the Afghanistan govt did not attack USA. This is about oil.
I could go on and on, but one must remember that in the last election, it was the liberals who were in power, not the conservatives. The only party that is selfish here is the libs, who choice not to bother putting in those multi-election promises that they kept on offering the public, and the public got angry.
Tell me, how long and how many majority lib govts, for example, did we have before the dying days of the last minority lib govt, when they said, oh, I will dust off that 1993 national daycare promise in the dying days of that govt. Give me a break.
But they like to give out lots of taxcuts to their corp friends. Dont talk to us about selfish.
Kelly, I love how you call it my "own vendetta against the Liberal Party." Like they slept with my boyfriend or spread rumours about me in the schoolyard.
They promised Canadians things like child care and an effective environmental plan and gave us corruption and corporate tax cuts instead. They promised us health care for a generation after they bled the system almost dry. They told us that it was important for young Canadians to have access to post secondary education but made sure that thousands upon thousands could no longer afford it. As Jan pointed out, they got us into this Afghanistan mess and have voted to keep us there.
I'd say that Canadians should have a vendetta against the Liberal Party.
Jan, I don't want to make a big arguement about this because I share a great number of beliefs as you folks on the far left, its just that I've come to realize that many of those ideals are impractical in today's world.
First off, when you say your MP voted for "right wing social bill", just because something is right of NDP doesn't make it right wing. Even for Canada, the NDP is pretty far left.
Secondly, the invasion of Afghanistan was a NATO led operation and they invoked the clause that any attack on one NATO country is an invasion on all, meaning we had no choice but to go, or renounce our NATO membership. Also, there is no oil in Afghanistan, but I completely agree that we are fighting someone else's war. I would like to have our troops pulled out tomorrow, but we can't just leave a big mess behind.
Thirdly, yes the Liberals do receive some corporate donations, but not anywhere near the amount the Cons get. If we were receiving all this corporate money, we could afford to run millions of dollars worth of commercials a month before an election is called.
Erin, I don't mean that you alone have a vendetta, but the NDP in general. I understand that you aren't impressed with the performances of Liberal governments, but can you sit here and tell me that this country would be better off if it had been a Conservative goverment these last 15 years? Would you prefer us to be in Iraq? To have privatized medical? To not have gay marriage legalized? To have even less environmental programs (which I know are very few as it is). Also, I can say a few negative things about the NDP's majority in Ontario in the 90s, or in BC, etc, but I won't because I would much prefer the NDP to the Cons. No party is perfect but there is certainly ones that are worse, and in this case, we should be able to agree that its Harpo and his posse.
Not-as-bad-as-the-Conservatives is not good enough. Although the Liberals have been winning seats off that slogan for years. Call me an idealist, but I am kinda thinking that Canadians want more than that now.
And, hilarious that you would bring up governments led by Bob Rae and Ujaal Dosanj.
The word idealist is not the word I would use; I think agendist is more appropriate. Just like I said in my intial statement, you have no regard for the welfare of the country. You're obviously too young to be around during a Conservative majority; every time you pick up the newpaper you read about another social program that's been axed, or another "investment" into the military. And that is just under Mulroney. Wait till Harpo has total control, forget about any environmental programs, say goodbye to the right to choose, prepare for a war in Iran. You'll be singing another tune Erin, I promise. You seem very smart, and you should think about looking outside party lines for a moment to take a look at the big picture.
Resorting to ageism and scare tactics rather than trying to defend the Liberal record. Nice.
And how young do you think I am? You know the picture at the top is just a cartoon right? Its not an actual representation of me. I'm not 17.
I remember Mulroney and I remember all the promises Chretien made to get elected- which he subsequently did not deliver on. And, there are many Liberal MPs who would also like to start interventionist wars and take away my right to choose.
You've been missing my point. I don't trust the Liberals to be much different than the Tories. I want Jack Layton to lead Canada with a caucus full of principled MPs. This is how we prevent all that scary stuff that you are talking about. No amount of calling the NDP "too left-wing" (modern day red-baiting) or telling me that the Liberals are better than Harper is going to move me on this. You've been trying that for years and still there are so many of us that are unconviced.
I've seen Liberal governments and I have seen Tory governments. I want something totally different.
It's been lovely spending my Friday night with you though.
See.. you had me for part of that.
I appreciate the support for human rights that the NDP has given (especially when its unpopular). I enjoy seeing the focus on democratic reform that the NDP brings. I am happy that the NDP takes measures that they feel will benefit Canadians in general and stand up for the 'little guy'.
I don't appreciate being hated because I don't support SSM or because I'm a social conservative. I think it idiotic that the NDP advocates for us to withdraw from Afghanistan (Where we are welcomed by the government -such as it is) and go to Sudan (where we would be viewed as invaders and strongly attacked by a large well-equipped army). I also think that the NDP global policies are naive and poorly guided. (Ie Russia invaded Georgia! Lets take it to the UNSC where Russia holds a veto! They'll take action for sure)
I come from a family who's roots are firmly entrenched in the NDP. But who's support has swung away from the NDP to a party who's supporters don't demonize us and tell us to leave our own nation. (not saying you do - but other Dippers have)
This is off topic, but I read Blogging Tory Ardvark's post about Dion possibly harmonizing the federal carbon tax with the BC tax. If that is the case, then would big polluting corporations get exempted?
Here's a link with video: http://thealbertaardvark.blogspot.com/2008/09/dion-to-harmonize-greenshift-with-bc.html.
I can't vouch for the authenticity of the video.
Ah, no party including the Liberals can accept corporate donations. That went out the window for the 2006 election, where elections laws were changed that all parties could not take donations from corporations, business, and union entities.
It also explains why the liberals are having "money problems" in financing their campaign, since their party had been the largest recipients of "corporate donations."
And I am quite aware that Afghanistan does not have oil. But you happen not to have any awareness - required reading beyond MSM - except G & M did let slip recently that Afghan has a lot to do with oil.
So here goes:
Afghanistan + Oil = "Crusade against Terrorism"
Afghanistan could be more important to America's oil supply than even Saudi Arabia. In 1997 BBC News reported that the American Oil company UNOCAL tried to construct a pipeline from The Caspian Sea.
The Caspian Sea is a California-size body of salt water -- the world's largest landlocked body of water -- that may sit on as much as 200 billion barrels of oil, which would be 16 percent of the Earth's potential oil reserves. That could add up to $3 trillion in oil or more at today's prices. (compared to Saudi's 250 billion barrels of oil and America's own 22 billion barrels - New York Times.)
The pipeline was to run from Turkmenistan via Afghanistan to the Port of Karachi. However the Taleban refused. Until about 1997, America had not been successful in persuading the Taleban to change its mind.
America used the pretext of WTC attacks in order to fulfill its economic aims. We were just lacky's in America's "hunger for oil". Tah
jan:
An oil pipeline does not a war make.
The US went into Afghanistan immediately after 9/11 because they had to in order to satiate US public opinion and because their case against the Taliban was so strong that they even got it through the UN.
There is almost no nation in the world that one could not make some argument concerning oil pipelines/oil. I mean, Layton argued that we should be in Sudan, a major oil producing nation. If we had taken his advice, one could then argue that we'd only be in Sudan 'for the oil'.
The justification for going into Afghanistan is strong and remains solid. Whether an oil pipeline is built in that nation doesn't detract from that justification.
We need STV in BC. www.stv.ca
Hells yes it's a scam. And a pretty funny one at that, at least funny in the sense that anyone would fall for it.
This reminds me of a personal incident during the last Municipal election when I was talking to my somewhat right-wing ex about politics. As a peace offering we both said nice things about one of the candidates from "the other side." Anyhow, long story short we both agreed to vote for that one candidate.
Except... I didn't keep my word and when I thought about it I didn't feel bad about reneging. While I respected the candidate I just couldn't bring myself to vote for them seeing for policy reasons amongst other things. Besides, I just couldn't escape the nagging feeling that had my swapped candidate lost by a vote, and hers won by a single vote I would've been kicking myself.
I am trying to swap my vote in "Laurier - Sainte-Marie" with a BLOC supporter that lives in "Westmount". I think helping the BLOC defeat the Conservatives in one riding while helping the NDP defeat the Liberals in another riding is a great idea.
Sure it is based on the honour system, but I have no other choice. My vote will just end up being useless in a riding the NDP will finish thousands of votes behind.
still running, with more than 8000 members.
WTF?
talk about manipulating democracy....
You can't win fair and square so manipulate the system.
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