"Stephen Harper was the goalie. He knew he'd be under attack from the others, that he wouldn't get an opportunity to score, so his job was to keep the puck out of the net and he did that. Stéphane Dion was skating around, he looked fine, but he didn't score - and he needed to score. Jack Layton was all over the ice - forward, defence, in the corners with his elbows up. He dominated. Elizabeth May was in the dressing room, still suiting up. And Gilles Duceppe was asleep on the bench...
Jack Layton won the game."
1 hour ago
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27 comments:
I just pissed myself laughing at this.
This is the complete encapsulation of the Liberal campaign.
IT'S OFFICIAL!
The NDP has given up on stopping Harper and is only interested in being the opposition!
The coverage of the NDP bloggers since the debate says it all with the free pass given to Harper for his continued abuse of the parliamentary system with his faux "confidence votes" (never mindd that the Liberals and NDP both voted against the first two Consearvative budgets), to bashing Bob Rae to this.
Well at least you kept up the facade for a short time that you actually didn't want Stephen Harper to still be PM.
These kind of juvenille stunts hardly contribute to rallying any new supporters beyond the 20% the NDP never seems to be able to excceed, but I presume it will just continue anyway since you don't care what kind havoc Harper will reap over the next few years. (BTW Dion actually did score after your footage conveniently cuts out nice to see the NDP is as honest with their attacks as the Cons)
But a few more seats is surely more important than having a more progressive Prime Minister right?
As long as the NDP cracks 20% in this election I'm guessing you'll be happy whether Harper has a majority or not.
I have a feeling though that all the women, minorities, artists, child care advocates, environmentalists, students and so on that you claim to want to represent will not be as pleased as you though with the results....
Whoa Mike. That's a lot of anger over a YouTube video.
It's pretty funny that you think that NDP bloggers determine the direction of the party. I suddenly feel so powerful.
But let's be clear: Jack Layton is continuing to stand up to Harper, just like he did throughout the last parliament. He is the only leader capable of really standing up to Harper. The debate made that so much more obvious.
As for Dion scoring eventually in the video, I didn't make the YouTube video and I haven't seen the footage you are talking about. But he misses an awful lot. And I think that's the point.
I am ever so sick of Liberals presuming that because we won't rally behind Stephane Dion, that we want Harper to be PM. That is arrogant BS which I have refuted time and time again. But you koolaid drinkers keep coming back with the same false Liberal/Conservative dichotomy in a desperate effort to save your sinking ship.
You have to stop being angry at NDP for being successful in convincing Canadians that there is a better choice than just Liberal or Conservative. This is a democracy and we are allowed to do that.
Go read up on your party's history with "women, minorities, artists, child care advocates, environmentalists, students, and so on" and then come back and try and tell me that only the Liberals can save us.
First, Mike, your Bob Rae (among other luminaries) is the one openly telling the flock to target the NDP now, not Harper -- in ridings where shifting votes from NDP to Liberal candidates can only elect a Conservative. It's clearer every day: Layton is the only one who can take on Harper.
Second, if your "strategists" are still pushing this unbelievably lame "faux confidence votes" line, one week before this vital election, then you're in deeper doo-doo than I imagined.
That, and what Erin said.
Mike,
Lemme get this straight?
After pissing on the NDP for the entire campaign, calling us all kinds of names under the sun, Dion, Rae and the rest of what remains of the Liberal brain trust comes courting MY vote?
The LPC has only itself to blame for its current problems. It was the LPC who enabled Harper, giving him a defacto majority. And now Dion says Canadians should rally round him to, er, stand up to Harper?
Get real.
The only progressive force out there capable of stopping Harper is Layton.
Grits and Dippers are targeting each other. Continue on fools... Does either Jack or Stephane still believe they are going to be PM? Pathetic.
Airheaded Dipper chick writes dumb post. Film at 11.
The return of the Anonymous Liberal...dun dun dun
Gerald Caplan explains it better than I. Harper wins even if he loses his Majority.
"Why? Because Mr. Dion will certainly be forced to step down, if he hasn't the wit to do so on his own. Mr. Duceppe may well join him, knowing that Mr. Harper helped him pull off his great political comeback, allowing him to leave on a high note. The NDP will be deeply in debt, having gambled a fortune in this campaign, and will be incapable of even muttering the word "campaign" for a long time to come."
Like I said, depressing.
I remember reading Kinsella's blog after the French debate, and him saying that he won the HOAG Factor - Hell of a guy, and had a couple seconds in another area. I don't remember us getting all angry and saying that's not fair.
The only unfair part, was post debate, when the CBC did not even interview Jack while the other 4 got air time. But NDP we soldier on knowing when we are being attacked by both the libs and the MSM, we are in the game, and it scares the crap out of them.
NDPers have a right to crow for a day or so. Think about it, Jack was super, even when Paiken entered the "game" as an illegal player.
Make no mistake, Layton is going after the Harper Cons for those seats that vie for NDP ones.
Remember in 2006 election, only the NDP took an incumbent seat from a Harper Conservative, the only party that did.
blueschair, Gerald Caplan was Bobby Rae's right hand person and campaign chair. I have not read one uplifting thing come from any of his posts. You are right, he is so depressing. I get more positive feedback from the writers from the parties for Layton NDP than anything Caplan's written for the Globe.
Have you wondered why Caplan was chosen by Globe to be NDPs commentator during this election? I sure have and it was to ensure that nothing positive came from that quarter.
Jan, actually Gerald Caplan has praised Jack Layton's campaign and Debate performance and he is extremely critical towards Dion. So you point is? See those Nanos numbers lately? Both Dion and Layton are not, I repeat, not challenging Stephen Harper. That is a fact. Grits and Dippers deserve a Harper reign.
I mostly just lurk here - finding DipperChick very witty and a great read - but comments like Mike's have persuaded me to have my say.
To begin my counter against Mike, let's take a look at a certain recent poll, shall we? According to the latest Harris-Decima poll, the Conservatives are at 35%, the Liberals are at 22%, and the NDP is at 20%.
We are statistically tied with the Liberals!
The NDP has been trending upwards this entire election campaign, while the Liberals have been trending downwards.
On just what basis do Liberals think that the most effective means to oppose Stephen Harper is for Dippers to vote Liberal instead? Wouldn't it make more sense for Liberal voters to get off the sinking Liberal ship and come over to the strong and steady Dipper ship?
Furthermore... how much strategic voting do you think it would take to overcome a freakin' 13-point gap with less than two weeks to go, and the debates behind us?
Look... very painful truths are never easy to swallow, but the truth of the matter is that barring a complete Jack Layton miracle (it would have to come from Jack Layton and the NDP because Dion and his party has been trending downwards for ages now), Stephen Harper will still be Prime Minister after election day.
The good news is, at 35%, he's almost certainly not getting a majority government. The Bloc resurgence in Quebec, coupled with the effects of the ABC campaign in parts of Atlantic Canada, will almost certainly prevent a Harper majority... no strategic voting necessary.
It is highly unlikely that strategic voting will make the difference between a Harper majority and a Harper minority, or the difference between a Harper minority and a Dion minority.
So, looking at things clearly and logically... in all likelihood, strategic voting will not make any significant difference in this election.
But... if we want to look at it in a more visionary way - in a way focused on what is best to ensure a progressive and prosperous Canada, there are clear differences between the NDP and the Liberals that point towards progressive Canadians voting NDP.
Both the NDP and the Liberals want a caring government which will use spending iniatives to help Canadians. While I have some doubts as to the Liberals here due to the spending cuts of the Chretien/Martin era... let's take Dion and his Liberals at their word here, for arguments sake.
The Liberals want to fund much of this spending through the income from a carbon tax. I believe that a carbon tax is not so much a method to help the environment as it is a way to support increased spending. If Dion truly wanted to do that he'd target the big polluters instead of going with a broadly applied carbon tax.
The NDP wants to fund its spending through not cutting corporate taxes - not raising them, but simply not cutting them. On the environment front, the NDP wants to target the big polluters first and foremost.
These two very different approaches highlight the considerable philosophical differences between the NDP and the Liberals.
The Liberals are still a pro-corporate party - a party that cares more about big business than middle-class Canadians. That is why the Liberals want to shift the bulk of the burden of combating climate change on the middle-class and the poor while the NDP wants to place the bulk of that burden where it belongs - on the big polluters. At the same time, the Liberals look to increase the tax burden on everyday Canadians in order to support their spending plans and their corporate tax cuts.
Canada already has a very economically competitive tax climate as it pertains to corporate taxes - our corporate taxes are actually lower than those of the US. We don't need to cut these taxes further - especially not at the cost of introducing a new tax that will be felt mostly by the middle-class and the poor.
This is why Jack Layton's environment/tax policy approach is far superior to Dion's. Jack eases the burden on the middle-class while not giving corporations unnecessary perks or failing to put proper pressure on the big polluters.
Dion clearly puts big corporations and big polluters ahead of middle-class Canadians in his environmental/tax policies.
Now, is he preferable to Harper in how he'd do much more to help Canadians with good government programs? Yes, absolutely.
However, Layton is also preferable to Dion.
Putting poll numbers aside for a second, it's quite clear who is the more progressive of the two. It's crystal clear who values middle-class Canadians the most.
Now, once you consider those 35/22/20 Harris-Decima poll numbers, I would go so far as to say that the best choice for progressive Canadians has never been more clear.
Vote NDP! Vote Jack Layton!
To
You can't tar everyone critical of NDP bloggers with the same brush. I do not condone Rae telling people to vote Liberal in ridings where the Liberals have no chance like Saskatchewan but mocking Dion's hockey skills and justifying Harper's faux confidence votes is incredibly grating and insulting to one's intellgience, that was the reason for my comments.
I believe in strategic voting to actually stop Harper. I think it would be a tragedy to see him re-elected with a stronger minority with a LOWER popular vote than in 2006. That is what would happen with the current polls.
The NDP are simply have not been able to get above 22% in this election. Right now though the most accurate pollster Nanos has it was 35-28-19.
Why is it so hard to admit that the Liberals are best poisted stop Conservatives in the most ridings across this country? They do currently hold 100 seats after all.
Both parties could gain seats in this election, but a badly divided vote could lead to actually SEAT LOSSES for BOTH PARTIES.
Apparently those on the left have learned nothing for the PC-Alliance battles of the past. Neither party wins!
Why don't some of you check out:
http://www.acreativerevolution.ca/node/1374
http://www.voteforthenvironment.ca
I'd be curious what you think. The latter is non-partisan, they even give Peterborough to the NDP despite the NDP never having been competitive in Ptbo history.
But a last word of advice to NDP supporters: you will NOT win over supporters of other parties with the kind of juvenile stuff in this post. Mocking a person's hockey skills just makes you to be just as childish as the Tories.
I'm not so much mocking Dion's hockey skills as I am mocking his team for allowing this footage to exist.
You're not getting it Mike. Many progressives who don't agree with Harper's agenda are voting NDP because Jack Layton is the only one who can stand up to him. Just not being Stephen Harper is not good enough to win the progressive vote. Especially when your record, like the Liberal record, is not all that progressive.
Gerry Caplan was quoted above as saying: "The NDP will be deeply in debt, having gambled a fortune in this campaign, and will be incapable of even muttering the word "campaign" for a long time to come."
He's quite simply wrong. The NDP's fundraising capabilities in 2008 are a world apart from their fundraising capabilities in 1984 (which, I believe, was the last campaign that he ran).
P.S. Posting as "anonymous" because my blogspot password isn't working.
You know that Jack won't stand up to Harper anymore than anyone else if Harper wins this election. The NDP will be broke after spending $19 million (which is far more than any past campaign, anons comments notwithstanding they are still way behind the Conservatives and barely ahead of the Libs in fundraising) and I'm sure they will avoid a campaign at all costs for at least 2 years.
But I'm just curious how exactly would Jack Layton "stand up to Harper"? What does he have to show for "standing up to him in the past"? Can you give specifics?
And how would that comfort anyone? Harper will likely still have the Bloc to prop him up. After all despite the NDP spin, the Liberals and NDP voted against the Conservatives on essentially every confidence motion in the first two years of in office (each budget, softwood lumber deal, etc...)).
So what would it matter if Layton had more seats? Give an example of a concrete difference it would make.
As for who's progressive, the Liberal platform would certainly be described as left-of-centre. It's very much in line with the policies we've seen in Sweden (which is FAR to the left of Canada overall): carbon taxes (combined with cap-and-trade) and low corporate taxes, with strong social programs (within what's affordable).
Or is Sweden a right wing country too now?
Or is the line that Dion wouldn't fulfill his promises? Even Layton knows better which is why he gave Dion the most praise of all the Liberal leadership candidates in the last election.
So Harper can be beaten but only if people actually vote strategically. If that happenned I bet the NDP could win 50 seats and the Liberals 115 and the Cons wouldd be reduced to 100 or so.
The alternative is more of Harper and despite what you say Layton wouldn't stop his policies any better than in the last Parliament bc the Bloc will ensure Harper gets his agenda passed.
It's well past time for progressives to cooperate or have we learned nothing from the PC-Aliance battles. We could both gains seats or both lose them.
Wtih the current poll standing we'd probably both lose seats and Harper would get about 145 and be more emboldened than ever. Is that what you want?
All Dipper Chick was saying, I think, is that Stephane Dion's choice of a hockey photo op is sadly ironic for him given Kinsella's assessment of the English debates.
I couldn't care less how good a hockey player Dion is, and I don't think that anybody here is honestly arguing that a person's vote should be based on such non-issues.
However, I do care that 43 times he propped up the Conservative government.
He didn't have to. He could have stood by his principles and brought the government down on one of those confidence motions. Faux confidence votes or not, Dion was still essentially telling Harper "Go ahead. You can govern like you have a majority because we're not willing to stand against you."
So... Dippers should vote Liberal (outside of Sask) in order to prevent a "stronger Harper minority".
Good grief... by a rationale like that, Dippers will always be expected to vote strategically Liberal. Our party will never grow if we keep giving in to those expectations... and we'll have continuous pro-corporate governments because of it.
The NDP has a great chance to grow in this election, and to offer Canadians a stronger progressive voice amongst the opposition benches in Ottawa. We should throw that away (at the cost of almost a $2 donation per vote per party as per Elections Canada's rules, may I add) for the sake of... what, maybe a ten seat difference within a Conservative minority?
For the sake of that, we should chuck the good option to vote for something that we truly believe in instead of simply against something?
If Stephane Dion wants my vote, he can change his stance on corporate tax cuts. Sweden is a progressive country... in spite of, not because of, its stance on that particular issue.
Well actually Dippers ought to be realistic and learn the lessons from Ontario. Bob Rae formed a 2 year pact with the Liberals in Ontario in 1985 despite the Conservatives winning the most seats. Yes the Liberals won a majority in 1987 but it gave the NDP immense credibility which allowed Bob Rae to the official opposition leader in 1987 and then Premier with a majority in 1990. It's widely acknowledged that without that 2 year pact this never would have been possible.
As long as Harper is in power the Canadian people will always see the NDP as the untested option that is too risky because he will NEVER work with you and give you any accomplishments to prove otherwise.
Whether you like or not there's a good reason the NDP never won more than 45 seats and never gone higher than 22% in the polls, people don't trust them with the reins of power especially at a time of economic crisis, most Canadians are centrist not left-wing.
Mark my words the NDP will not finish above 25% in this election despite running the strongest campaign and spending the most money in their party's history. You'll have to analyze why.
The best thing for the NDP would be to become a junior partner in a Liberal government like Rae did as it would give them immense credibility and build them up for the future.
So yes the NDP should want a Liberal government so that they can actually go back to Canadians and say "look what we accomplished and how responsible we were". They kind of had that with Martin government but it was just one budget and they decided to throw that advantage away and now they are going back to the electorate having accomplished lesss in this Parliament than in the last.
Just further makes the case that the NDP will never been seen as anything other than a permanent opposition party unless they actually get a chance to influence policy like Rae's party did in Ontario.
The only other alternative to gain government for the NDP is for them to become a policy clone of the Liberals (which wouldd mean embracing cutting corporate taxes) as the Labour parties did in Australia and Britain to gain power and yes as GARY DOER has done in Manitoba and Lorne Calvert in Saskatchewan as they cutcorporate taxes .
Judging by what I read here you wouldn't like the latter option though and I'm not sure what purpose it would serve to just replace one party with another with the exact same policies but a different name.
Take your pick but if Harper wins the NDP will come back at the next election with nothing to show for any extra seats they might win. Then the Liberals if they push Dion out with be back with a different LESS progressive leader who the media would like more and that person wouldd demolish the NDP back down again. I'd rather see Dion more than any other Liberal as PM personally. I don't think the NDP will ever have a better more progressive Liberal leader to work with.
But this time the Canadian people won't trust Layton with the job the numbers and organization aren't there either.
Instead I think both parties would benefit long-term and Canada as well by following this:
http://www.voteforthenvironment.ca
Why, Mike, should dippers listen to your politics-of-the-impossible "lessons?" They should hold fast to their principles, reach high, and offer Canadians a real alternative. Like the man with the 'stach says, Don't let them tell you it can't be done.
Meanwhile, drawing mazes of excuses for Liberal abstentions accomplishes what? When Libs refuse to take responsibility for what they've done, they tell us to expect more of the same. That is: if Harper gets another minority, Libs will go back to rubber-stamping his agenda -- immediately and indefinitely.
And "indefinitely," by the Libs' own logic, means until electoral prospects are brighter. Which means at least until a new leadership race is hatched, run, and done. And could easily mean much longer than that - if ever.
No thanks.
Just why Jaytoo do you think the NDP can't crack 20% in the polls? Honest answer please bc each time they've gotten as high 22% they fall back down again. That's hardly close to forming government.
I'd say it's because people see them as untested and don't trust them to govern.
Feel free to ignore the lessons that brought the NDP to government in Ontario in you wish, your party won't be any better off for it. You could have a government willing to work with your party or not you choose, because you won't be the government after this election.
Decima/Harris today which all the Dippers were crowing about yesterday has Liberals taking back Conservative support(down to 34%) with NDP at standstill faling further behind the Libs .
Nanos has it 34-30 today with the NDP down at 19. So who is best poised to stop Harper? The NDP has never cracked 22% in any poll. IF there was strategic voting across the country Harper WOULD be stopped.
At least Jaytoo you admit that you aren't interested in stopping Harper this election. You don't care that he would would drain the coffers further so if the NDP ever got to power they would not be able to offer ANYTHING because the cupboard would be bare.
Note that Layton refuses to say he'll raise taxes so Harper will lower them further in his next term both corporate and personal income taxes and Layton won't say he'll raise them back. Count on it
But that's party loyalty over results for people I guess.
If the Conservatives win it will be the Bloc that will rumber stamp them and there's little Liberals or NDP could do about it.
Jack would come back at the next election yet again with NOTHING to show for the previous session of Parliament.
There's a better choice though that works to the benefit of both the NDP and Liberals:
http://www.voteforenvironment.ca/
Mike, I don't know who you think you are convincing over here.
I'm starting to feel like you are like one of those Liberals who keeps you at the door forever when you are canvassing just to waste your time.
You aren't really offering new arguments in your essay-length comments (though I have to admit, I stopped fully reading them a few comments back). And you haven't really refuted our central argument: Liberal governments are not necessarily progressive and only Jack Layton can really be trusted to stand up to Harper.
By all means keep commenting, but if you throw in one more gratuitous link (though I am glad you have not figured out the link tag), I'm going to have to delete your comment.
I too mostly lurk, but this thread is interesting, in how it exposes the duplicity of the federal Liberal strategy of divide and conquer. To wit:
Mike says, "But a few more seats is surely more important than having a more progressive Prime Minister right?"
It's almost as if the Liberals don't understand that we are engaged in an election campaign. The whole purpose of forming political parties and engaging in election is to elect members and form government.
The problem is, the Liberals have never believed that there should be any other political parties but the Libs and Cons. The Libs have always campaigned like social democrats and governed like Conservatives. This time, they're being squeezed because of an abysmal performance in Parliament, and have lost the moral authority to claim the mantle of Opposition.
Next, Mike can't seem to get his facts straight on the level of NDP support, saying alternately that, "These kind of juvenille stunts hardly contribute to rallying any new supporters beyond the 20% the NDP never seems to be able to exceed…".
Then Mike says, "Whether you like or not there's a good reason the NDP never won more than 45 seats and never gone higher than 22% in the polls..."
Lastly, Mike makes the claim that, "Mark my words the NDP will not finish above 25% in this election despite running the strongest campaign..."
Well, it seems to this observer at least, that NDP support is going up even in the minds of the most vehement Liberal aparatchiks. Thanks for the grudging nod, Mike.
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